Thread: COWBOYS vs COWS in paradise

Can you tell heads from tails on an old Chinese coin? I cant but there are two sides to them just as there are two sides to what you say.

If you write to me about your land problem in Gianyar regent I may be able to help.

Anger and emotion never works here in Bali.

Leisna

Can you tell us a little (without giving too much away) about your situation. Your experiences are valued on a forum but some background would help. I have been going to Bali since 1981 and have seen the teenagers of then, grow to the adults of today. I am married to an Indonesian not Balinese though.

As in all cultures there are bad and good and tourism has impacted on the Balinese in many many ways.

Hi Sully,
you can read the post: Check the access to your land and beware of passive/active ADAT

Except that, I have been buying handicrafts from small villages in Indonesia since 97` and experienced the difficulties of working with the locals. In the long term, because I kept helping by buying things , I gained the respect of some.
I was also in Solo in 98 when they burned down most of the businesses, don t trigger them because if they got mad....just run and lock up in a safe, they know no limit.
The tourism is blooming too fast and it seems some locals are fed up. The future will tell us if we are physically safe here, more and more are getting ripped off and Balinese don t seem to understand what is a contract, if they change their mind, that s it. You got 3 days to leave. Jealousy is the virus here, combined to ignorance, it s a ` molotov cocktail`.
Well, except that, what you usually experience in the daily life is still probably funnier than in the west.

What happened in Solo and Jakarta in 1998 is called the financial crisis. It had nothing to do with foreigners or expats and nothing happened here in Bali.

For every land arrangement that goes bad for an expat there are at least ten or more which go fine and without problems. Why are there so many thousands of foreigners living on Bali? Why are there so many thousands of foreigners with good business here in Bali?

There is no reason to fear physical safety here in Bali. Please be careful not to say on the internet something which is not fair or only coming from emotion.

There is good and bad in all people. This is normal in the world. Sorry that so far you have had an unequal balance of just the bad things. This can change.

@dedoo...

Don't understand the reference to Chinese coins, unless it's what these depraved people are trying to extort.

Your statements suggests you feel they have good reason for this disgusting behaviour by saying there is another side? Why don't you tell all and explain what you think this other side is?

It is true the "financial crisis" had nothing to do with foreigners and expats, but had everything to do with the true underlying character of Indonesians and their attitude towards outsiders. During that tumultuous time, many ethnic Chines Indonesians were purposely targeted, brutalised, beaten, raped and murdered, with many of their businesses burnt down and destroyed. It was a disgusting display of humanity on the part of many (prebumi) Indonesians showing the hatred and resentment they harboured in their rotten souls. It will always be a putrid stain (one of many) on Indonesian history.

Bali was a safe haven during that time, and many ethnic Chinese Indonesians managed to travel here to avoid being persecuted. Thank god for that. But move forward a little to the Indonesian presidential elections, there were riots in Bali, all because their beloved Megawati lost the presidential election. Businesses were vandalised and burnt down, property destroyed, people injured, many roads had nearby trees smashed down and made into barricades so no one could pass. So to say there is no fear for one's safety in Bali is wrong! If there are any lessons to be learnt, it shows how easy a group can be stirred up and vigilante mentality can prevail.

Thank god till now most Balinese have shown restraint and an act that rivals the Jakarta riots in scale and brutality has never happened here. A good example was after the first Bali bombings, groups of Balinese were calling for reaction by targeting Muslim communities living in Bali. Cooler heads prevailed and meetings between the Hindu and Muslim community groups managed to calm everyone down and promote a better understanding of each other. But there is no denying, we will never know what future events may take place, and there is always a chance people will overreact. A mix of emotions can cause sensible people to act in the most destructive, heinous ways!

Why are there so many westerners living and doing business in Bali? This is a good question. I can only answer that by saying, many don't fully understand the difficulties they will encounter doing so, but there is no denying the lifestyle enjoyed here by many is 2nd to none and that appeal alone is a huge influence in why people do choose Bali. But make no mistake, as an expat, there are unique obstacles and there are certain rules that need to be followed.

Most foreigners visiting or living in Bali do have a positive influence on the island. Whether regular holiday makers, retirees, or business owners who bring their own set of unique skills and ideas. They can employ locals and generally give good wages with many extra benefits. They encourage locals to train in better skills allowing them to prosper and move forward in life. If you compare this to some locally owned businesses, their staff are under paid, and under appreciated, with no hope of improving their circumstances. It's no secret Balinese people do prefer working for foreigners because of this.

But lets be reasonable, it's true the greater majority of Balinese people are good at heart, they work hard, especially the women, and they are honest, caring people. But the true topic of this post is about stories of extortion and local Balinese under the guise of Desa Adat demanding illegal payments from a land owner to secure access rights. And on a bigger scale, how many Balinese welcome foreign visitors not with open arms, but open palms, and it's their attitude that foreigners owe them huge gratitude and financial rewards for the privilege of visiting Bali.

If you want to defend this behaviour by saying there are two sides to a story, then you are just naive and exasperating the problem by making silly excuses. Just because you don't like certain parts of this story is not a reason for it to not be on the internet. That kind of attitude is at the fundamental core of why these types of things continue to happen, silence the victim so we can victimise others.

Indonesia has very weak rule of law, and as such many unsavoury characters thrive by taking advantage of the fact it's easy to get away with many crimes. The difference of Bali is their religion and culture are so strong and prevalent in their day to day lives, so they have the power to better themselves through education and by setting good examples.

When you do hear stories of dishonest Balinese cheating, stealing or extorting money from outsiders, it sadly reflects on their whole culture. The local Balinese community leaders need to be more pro-active in promoting good morals, and also hold their people more accountable if they ever behave in a dishonest way.

Hi Pete!

The reference to the Chinese coin was simply an analogy. It was supposed to simply mean that as one cannot tell heads from tails from such old coins, the fact is they still have two sides. I’m sorry that was a bad choice to illustrate what I was trying to say.

I am also sorry that you think that I am automatically taking the Balinese side with this problem, but I have not written anything that should suggest that. Since Liesna has not fully explained all the details, how can anyone make a fair judgment? That is all I am suggesting. I certainly do not mean to imply that extortion on any level can be justified.

As for the riots during the financial crisis those were not the first time. It was one of many times in our past history that this has happened going back many centuries. They all were based on pure economics or as some would say those who have and those who do not have. But thank you for pointing out the restraint showed by us after both the first and second Bali bombing.

I have exchanged a few e-mails with Liesna offering my help. Now that I know the name of the village I might be able to help because it is clear that there is a break down in communication and understanding. I also know some particulars about this village.

Liesna’s problem often happens in remote village particularly when there has been no foreigners living there before. The idea that Banjar Adat can be ruled by just a small number of Adat members is simply not true unless the majority of the Banjar Adat members are themselves afraid or suspicious of the newcomers. This is just simple human nature. It is also untrue that Adat is above the law. Adat law can not circumvent or supersede national provincial or regency law. That is fact. Adat law is given the first responsibility for remedy of village problems, but that is all.

And please, let us be totally honest and fair here. There are several stories of accounts of foreign land developers here in Bali that also operate without morals or fairness. Two Australians were just given jail time for exactly this kind of thing, cheating another foreigner out of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

My comments are not meant to suggest that discussions relating to pitfalls in property arrangements here in Bali with foreigner should be hidden. I am suggesting that such discussions remain free of anger and emotion as well as free of broadly made statements that are accusatory and inaccurate. I hope you agree that anger and accusation serves no purpose.

I have agreed with Liesna to not share any details I know about their problem. But I will share some initial thoughts I have about their problem. This is what I am thinking is at least part of the issue.

One is that whoever their village contact is or their land nominee is either weak or not doing their part to introduce these new people into the village environment.

Another is that Liesna has also failed to extend themselves in such a manner that the village gets to know who they are and what their intentions are in choosing that village.

I tell expats all the time who have asked me for my assistance to get to know and show yourself to the village as much as possible even before you buy or contract. Has Liesna been to any village temple ceremonies? I don’t know. But I do know that showing yourself in that context goes a long way towards building trust. This has nothing to do with religion. But at temple which is such a village wide community event, the barriers of mistrust are broken down. Temple ceremonies are as much a community event as they are a religious event.

Do you want to know why those expats that have lived here for so long have managed? It is because they understand the importance of this. Liesna would be wise to consult with the wisdom of those long time expats who have already been through all of this. Has Liesna done this? I don’t know.

It is vitally important that any foreigner and this includes non Balinese Indonesians give every effort to offer themselves as willing community members and not as some newcomers who remain hidden and private behind their walls. That might be ok in parts of southern Bali, but it is not ok in the remote villages of the rest of Bali. Community living is essential among us, and those who are not able to accept that which will not change are going to have problems.

This is not easy for many westerners and it takes a lot of effort. But at the same time one has to give some understanding to the natural suspicion and fear that a foreigner can bring into a village which is not used to foreigners.

My initial thoughts on Liesna’s problem is that it isn’t money which is really the issue here. Money is only the means of the expression of the angst within the village. To resolve Liesna’s problem will mean starting over from the bottom up. These are the things that should have been done in the first place.

I hope this offers some insight that maybe you have not considered before.

quote: ``One is that whoever their village contact is or their land nominee is either weak or not doing their part to introduce these new people into the village environment.
Another is that Liesna has also failed to extend themselves in such a manner that the village gets to know who they are and what their intentions are in choosing that village.``

Ok, if you want to know, we went there many times, sat down with the people bought directly from the owner. No nominee as one of us in Indonesian.
We have been introduced to the kelian adat and kelian dinas, by the owner of the land (who live 500 meters away but is part of a different bajar). We checked if it s ok for them if we build up a house. I also got the signature from the neighbors (4 sides). I did Show the draft of the house to the kelian adat/dinas/kepala desa. Talked about access+ partisipasi and the Kelian said they could not tell us how much BEFORE. You need to have the house built FIRST, then as you become masyarakat (citizen) you will participate as the others.
We signed a contract with the kelian ADAT and Kelian Dinas saying they don t oppose to the building of our house there and that we would be treated same as the other citizens (written and signed). I said clearly that I will pay for the upacara SAME as the others but won t accept to be charged more to avoid the classic discrimination . Sure, don t worry, our masyarakat are good people, things like that don t happen here. They spoke about our house at least twice a citizen meeting and just asked us to promise that a mesjid won t grow up in their village, no other request.
We got the IMB approved and left the country while our kontraktor was starting to make the fundations. During the Galungan, as we were away, I guess that some masyarakat just realized that there was something happening nearby. They must not be very involved in the life of their village as most of the people call my name in the street as they ve seen me for the past two years!
So, all of a sudden, the Kelian adat told the kontraktor that we cannot use the roads anymore.... ``You can build, we don t deny .But you don t have the authorisation to pass the roads....any road of that village.`` Sure, that make sense. Not even waiting 2 weeks for me to come back. Pay or stop. I asked how much? We don t know yet, we have to decide.
The rest of the story has been written in details in the forum `owning property in Bali` :
`check the access to your land `

The reason I started a post here is to warn investors that nonsense things can happen even when you do your very best to avoid it and follow the culture as well as the law. I m here since 15 years, I sit down with them and speak fluent Indonesian. By the way, never tell them : ``we have the same heart and our blood has the same color` ...I offended one of them badly when I just meant :`we are equal`. The word `blood` is kindda taboo...

I really hope that I can post good news and explain others how to solve such problems .
advice: never be the first foreigner in a village.

Originally Posted by Liesna

quote: ``One is that whoever their village contact is or their land nominee is either weak or not doing their part to introduce these new people into the village environment.
Another is that Liesna has also failed to extend themselves in such a manner that the village gets to know who they are and what their intentions are in choosing that village.``

Ok, if you want to know, we went there many times, sat down with the people bought directly from the owner. No nominee as one of us in Indonesian.
We have been introduced to the kelian adat and kelian dinas, by the owner of the land (who live 500 meters away but is part of a different bajar). We checked if it s ok for them if we build up a house. I also got the signature from the neighbors (4 sides). I did Show the draft of the house to the kelian adat/dinas/kepala desa. Talked about access+ partisipasi and the Kelian said they could not tell us how much BEFORE. You need to have the house built FIRST, then as you become masyarakat (citizen) you will participate as the others.
We signed a contract with the kelian ADAT and Kelian Dinas saying they don t oppose to the building of our house there and that we would be treated same as the other citizens (written and signed). I said clearly that I will pay for the upacara SAME as the others but won t accept to be charged more to avoid the classic discrimination . Sure, don t worry, our masyarakat are good people, things like that don t happen here. They spoke about our house at least twice a citizen meeting and just asked us to promise that a mesjid won t grow up in their village, no other request.
We got the IMB approved and left the country while our kontraktor was starting to make the fundations. During the Galungan, as we were away, I guess that some masyarakat just realized that there was something happening nearby. They must not be very involved in the life of their village as most of the people call my name in the street as they ve seen me for the past two years!
So, all of a sudden, the Kelian adat told the kontraktor that we cannot use the roads anymore.... ``You can build, we don t deny .But you don t have the authorisation to pass the roads....any road of that village.`` Sure, that make sense. Not even waiting 2 weeks for me to come back. Pay or stop. I asked how much? We don t know yet, we have to decide.
The rest of the story has been written in details in the forum `owning property in Bali` :
`check the access to your land `

The reason I started a post here is to warn investors that nonsense things can happen even when you do your very best to avoid it and follow the culture as well as the law. I m here since 15 years, I sit down with them and speak fluent Indonesian. By the way, never tell them : ``we have the same heart and our blood has the same color` ...I offended one of them badly when I just meant :`we are equal`. The word `blood` is kindda taboo...

I really hope that I can post good news and explain others how to solve such problems .
advice: never be the first foreigner in a village.

Good luck and I hope that your problems can be resolved to all parties satisfaction